No More Hustleporn: Jamie Dimon has the brain of a Republican but the heart of a Democrat
We pulled out the highlights from JP Morgan's Jamie Dimon's recent interview with the Economist. Transcription and light editing by Anthropic's Claude, curation by Yiren Lu :-)
Highlights
Zanny Minton Beddoes: You were in China recently, and reportedly you said that the Sino US relationship was the most complex since the Second World War. Henry Kissinger and I had a long conversation just a few weeks ago for his hundredth birthday, and he said to us that he thought that we were on the path to great power confrontation.
Jamie Dimon: Yeah, I mean, we should be talking to Chinese and they should be talking to us. I tell people when you go there, the first thing should be let's talk about your family. Then the next meeting maybe, let's talk about the hopes and aspirations for your country. And then the third meeting is we're going to explain to you what we're worried about. Let's have a real conversation. This is going to take real tough negotiations to get it right.
I'm a firm believer if you opened up our borders, billions of people would move here. If you opened up our markets, trillions of dollars would move here. It's not true that they'd move to other parts of the world. So we should be looking at our own flaws and not always blaming other people. The Chinese are not 10ft tall. They import 10 million barrels of oil a day. They don't have enough food. We have all the food and energy we want. Our GDP per person is $80,000. Theirs is 15. Our military is the best in the world, and maybe they're caught up in a couple of areas, but the notion that somehow America has to be that afraid of China, we don't. On the other hand, looking back 15 years, we all made a mistake. We should have been thinking this national security, unfair competition and not just hoping it all ends up okay. They've been doing that for ten or 15 years. If you look at how they think about supply chains, and industries they want to dominate, they've been quite blunt about it, which I understand they're trying to do a good job for their own country.
Full Transcript
Narrator: Jamie Dimon is the CEO of America's largest and most successful bank, J.P. Morgan Chase. At the helm of a company active in over 60 countries worldwide, Dimon played a pivotal role in the global financial crisis of 2008. And again in 2023, The Economist's editor-in-chief, Zanny Minton Beddoes, sat down with him to get his take on the biggest financial and geopolitical challenges facing the world today.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: You were in China recently, and reportedly you said that the Sino US relationship was the most complex since the Second World War. Henry Kissinger and I had a long conversation just a few weeks ago for his hundredth birthday, and he said to us that he thought that we were on the path to great power confrontation.
Jamie Dimon: Yeah, I mean, we should be talking to Chinese and they should be talking to us. I tell people when you go there, the first thing should be let's talk about your family. Then the next meeting maybe, let's talk about the hopes and aspirations for your country. And then the third meeting is we're going to explain to you what we're worried about. Let's have a real conversation. This is going to take real tough negotiations to get it right.
I'm a firm believer if you opened up our borders, billions of people would move here. If you opened up our markets, trillions of dollars would move here. It's not true that they'd move to other parts of the world. So we should be looking at our own flaws and not always blaming other people. The Chinese are not 10ft tall. They import 10 million barrels of oil a day. They don't have enough food. We have all the food and energy we want. Our GDP per person is $80,000. Theirs is 15. Our military is the best in the world, and maybe they're caught up in a couple of areas, but the notion that somehow America has to be that afraid of China, we don't. On the other hand, looking back 15 years, we all made a mistake. We should have been thinking this national security, unfair competition and not just hoping it all ends up okay. They've been doing that for ten or 15 years. If you look at how they think about supply chains, and industries they want to dominate, they've been quite blunt about it, which I understand they're trying to do a good job for their own country.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I was in Beijing a couple of months ago. The view in Beijing is that the US wants to keep China down and the view in Washington is that China is an aggressive, authoritarian regime that wants to create a world order that's kind of antithetical to democracies. I think there's an element of truth to both of those. And that's the problem, isn't it?
Jamie Dimon: Our goal should be to lift up America, do a great job, keep our Western alliances together, both for the military -- for example, Ukraine -- and to counter some of the bad guys out there. But economically, we need an economic, comprehensive strategy too. That's trade investment, even like the IRA Act, which, again, I support most of it, it wasn't done really thoughtfully with our allies. They looked at that and said, that is the most anti-European thing we've ever done. And sometimes they complain too much, but they're also partially right. And so to me, we got to keep that all together, and we can be tough and mature, we don't have to hold them down. We have to just protect ourselves. And there's a big difference between the two.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: If one side thinks the other is trying to keep them down. And frankly, there is evidence for that, right? I mean, what are these export controls on advanced semiconductors? They're designed to ensure that China stays far behind the US in the cutting edge technologies of the 21st century.
Jamie Dimon: I think if it related to national security, I supersonic missiles, I understand why we do it. If it relates to holding back the Chinese people, I understand why we shouldn't do it. So I know I've had a couple of conversations with people which about the two nanos, the four nanos, the six nanos, where is it being used in military equipment? Where is it not being used? No country would give away their best military equipment to another country that they might go to war with. That would be okay. It's just that's this narrow garden thing we have to be very careful about. And like I said, I don't think we've ever done this before. So I think we're all struggling to figure out what we actually mean by that. I think the government businesses are, but going and talking to each other is the first way to say what really matters, what's important. What protects the United States?
Zanny Minton Beddoes: What are the geopolitical events other than China, which we've talked about, that worry you most, or risks?
Jamie Dimon: In 1918, we said never again. In 1945, we said never again. And on February 24, 2022, you had 300,000 Russian troops with thousands of tanks and aircraft under a nuclear threat, black umbrella, blackmail, invade a free and democratic European nation. This is as serious as you can find. Now, I think it had all the opposite effects that Putin wanted, which is NATO coming close together, the Democrats and Republicans becoming united, Sweden and Finland, hopefully joining NATO, etc. But this is still very serious. And the other big effect is it's affecting every major relationship in the world between the Western world, the autocratic world, Iran, North Korea, all of that, including trade, investment, anything related to security. So I think this is a very serious issue.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Do you think the world is more dangerous than at any time in your lifetime?
Jamie Dimon: Yes, I think it's hard to argue that it's not. Again, we haven't had something like this since World War II. And since World War II, the U.S. has been the global hegemon leader of the free world. But when you look at the U.S. now — an unbelievably polarized country, the economy is doing well, but an incredibly politically polarized country — it looks like we're gearing up for another Trump-Biden rematch. Is U.S. politics capable of that kind of leadership?
Jamie Dimon: One of the beautiful things about democracy is we can argue, we can talk, we share information. People change their minds. If they don't like their leadership, they change their leadership. I think it's very important to point out it does need American leadership. I don't mean that as an arrogant American. I mean that there is no one else who can provide it economically, militarily. It's got to be done with allies. We can't be "our way or the highway" when it comes to every little thing. It's got to be economic, diplomacy, development, finance. So I would love to see us do more of those things, but I think a lot of the government members do.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Is there really an appetite for that? I mean, if you look back at the sort of post-war period, there was a bipartisan support for American engagement, for American global leadership. Now, if you look suddenly at the Republican Party, there's a growing isolationist wing in that party, and it's not at all clear what a future President Donald Trump might do in terms of American leadership. If you're outside America, if I live in London, we're worried about this.
Jamie Dimon: I would worry about another Trump presidency too, by the way. But I think there's always been an isolation element. It took a lot to get us to World War I. It took a lot to get us to World War II. But I think if you go to Washington DC, when it comes to Ukraine, it's been pretty tight between Republicans and Democrats. So when it was needed, support was there.
And I think the other thing we have to explain to the American public is we're doing it for America. Of course, you have the concept of "America first." Can you imagine someone running for president saying "America second"? But we're doing this for America. If America gets isolated, if autocratic nations kind of cherry-pick the world on security, food, economics, and development finance, if the Chinese are all over Latin America as they are in Africa, and we're not there, that's a huge mistake for America.
So America should be doing this for itself. We have to explain to the American public why it's important.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I guess the reason I worry about that is that in both parties there's been movement away from that approach. There seems to be a sense that America's old approach wasn't working. So the kind of thing that you are describing, I just don't see as much support for.
Jamie Dimon: I think a lot of people just throwing a lot of stuff in there saying, oh, American leadership and the economy and free enterprise and capitalism wasn't working. It was working. So I think that's a huge mistake. And somehow we're confusing national security with all these other things. I don't think it's a smart thing for America to be going around the world lecturing all these other countries about stuff. I'm more in the real politic camp where these countries have their own interests. We should understand that we may not like it, we may not like everything they do, they don't like everything we do. But I would focus on security and economic strategy. I'd focus on those things that keep the Western world together.
But that does not mean there aren't flaws. We've done a particularly bad job in America taking care of our lower-paid citizens, particularly in parts of rural America and the inner cities. That's a fact. We should acknowledge that. What did we get wrong? Like, think of inner-city high schools. What do we get wrong when it comes to health care, we've got things right, we have some of the best in the world pharma, doctors, science hospitals. I'm a beneficiary of all that. But we got things wrong. Too much obesity, too much drugs, too much we got things wrong with jobs. We should acknowledge those things without denigrating my country, because I'm also against that, that we have to denigrate America because we made mistakes. There is no nation on the planet who didn't make some terrible mistakes.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Let's talk about Bidenomics. The President has been out touting Bidenomics, yet his approval ratings on the economy are pretty crummy. Do you think Bidenomics has been a success?
Jamie Dimon: God, that's a tough question to answer. Look, I'm in favor for the first time in my life of some industrial policy for security reasons and for competitive reasons and stuff like that. It shouldn't be political. It should be purely economic or something like that. I think one of the things I think the American public looks at is, is our government competent and effective. Is it becoming too much, big brother? And I think those are different questions than the IRA Act and also the fiscal spending $5 trillion of excess fiscal spending over two years, some to counter COVID, but some was far more in excess of that is causing inflation.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: So how would Diamondomics be different from Bidenomics?
Jamie Dimon: First of all, I'm a free enterprise person. I think markets do work. I think we talk about the flaws of the markets. There have always been some flaws in the markets. But if that's being used to get rid of free enterprise, that's a mistake. The most important part of free enterprise isn't capital. It's people. The movement of people, the brain power of people, your ability to start and think and grow and move and things like that. And so I would have growth policies. We haven't done a particularly good job in this country. To give you a number, we grew from the last 20 years, something like 1.7% a year. It should have been 3%. We should be criticizing ourselves. Why wasn't it 3%? I personally believe it's because we've done a terrible job on immigration, taxation, mortgages, affordable housing, health care. But I think we go 3%. 3% would mean the average American would have $15,000 more GDP per person this year. That's what we should have done. That would have paid for better safety nets, that would have paid for more military, it would have paid for more schooling, whatever you think we need to do more of.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But that list of things that you've laid out, it doesn't bear a huge amount of resemblance to the things that the administration is focusing on. Bidenomics, as you said, it's about industrial policy. It's about a bigger role for the state.
Jamie Dimon: Yeah, I'd be careful about that. We all agree that we needed a better job in education. We should be making it cheaper, not more expensive. Kids should know, if I graduate with this certificate or this degree, I can get a job making $75,000 a year. We should do a better job at that. We're doing work with the community colleges in New York to give kids certificates in cybersecurity, data analysis, program management, financial management. That gives them a job, a livelihood. And then, of course, jobs lead to dignity, better outcomes, better social outcomes, more mobility. I think in our society, we make fun sometimes to burger flip a job. That first job is the first rung in the ladder. It matters that brings dignity.
I would do things like expand the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is a little form of industrial policy. It's a negative income tax. I think it would help society dramatically to get more cash in the hands of lower-paid workers who would probably spend that money, take care of their families and their neighborhoods. And like I said, better social outcomes.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: So when I listen to you, I hear you talking like this. I think that for a man who runs a very big, successful bank, you have a lot of ideas about public policy. Why don't you run for office?
Jamie Dimon: I'm 67 years old. I think if you're going to run for president, that's young by the standard of a presidential candidate. I've never really believed I'm suited for it. And I also think if you're going to do that, you should practice. You don't just say, "Oh, I'm going to run for office." You've got to learn how to run for office. There may be common skills between a CEO in terms of administration, management, leadership, but also uncommon ones. You're dealing with a whole bunch of different issues and a bunch of different venues and stuff like that. So I think it's perfectly reasonable that people think about it. I think it's very hard to do. And in fact, if you just look at history, it's almost impossible, except for Donald Trump. But he is the exception, and that may be the exception for 100 years. But every other American president spent a lot of time in politics or was a respected general. Basically, he is the exception. Remember, that was the third time he ran.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: That's true. What about serving in an administration?
Jamie Dimon: Maybe one day that'll be in the cards, but that's not in the cards right away. But I love my country, and to me, my family comes first, but my country is right next.
Jamie Dimon: JPMorgan is down here.
Jamie Dimon: JPMorgan is my best contribution that I can do. We have 300,000 employees. We take care of them well. We give them opportunity.
Jamie Dimon: We bank the world, the IMF, Ukraine, Poland, cities, schools, states, hospitals. I'm very proud of what we do. We help our employees. We help 5 million small businesses. It's unbelievable. That's my contribution.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Is there ever a tension between what's good for your country and what's good for JP Morgan?
Jamie Dimon: Yeah, but I would always pick what's good for the country, and I think we need, I think, I criticize government sometimes. I would also criticize business where they go to Washington, DC. And it's always feeding at the trough. We have tax breaks for sugar and cotton. Why we have carried, you know, people going down there and just fighting for own little I think it's a mistake if business leaders said we can grow the economy faster with good policy, that would be far better for their business than just getting a little tax breakdown there.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: I think you said a decade ago that you were barely a Democrat, and I think in 2019 you said your brain was probably more Republican, but your heart was Democrat. Which party are you closer to?
Jamie Dimon: I don't know. I'm still in the same place. I think we should be taking care of our citizens. Like I said, we haven't done a particularly good job for the bottom 20% or something like that, and I want to do a better job. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: But in the end, you have to put a tick in a box. I'm not expecting you to tell me where you'll put your tick in a box. But put it this way which party has changed more? And which party do you worry about its direction?
Jamie Dimon: No, but then you're making the parties binary. They're not. Look, I'm highly critical of the parties, too. Sometimes when I go down to Washington, I call them the wing nuts. Yes, they're there. But there are a lot of very smart people in both parties who I know and respect that really want to get things right. And I try to focus on that.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Jamie Dimon, thank you so much.
Jamie Dimon: Always a pleasure. Thank you.
Zanny Minton Beddoes: Thanks for watching. If you'd like to read more of our business coverage, please click the link and don't forget to subscribe.